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Ms. S S M's avatar

This is very interesting to me since I have a newborn. She’s a very chill baby mostly unbothered. That’s a lot like me. I’m hoping this continues into her later years and it seems I have reason to be optimistic.

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LucyTrice's avatar

Thought you all might appreciate this:

My son't best friend in his first year in journalism and starting his first journalism writing class this semester. My son reported that his friend has serious reservations about the class: no British English and no Oxford commas allowed.

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Jay Janney's avatar

Eats bamboo, shoots and leaves

It's my favorite joke.

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LucyTrice's avatar

The effect of siblings on each other is also interesting. I have noticed in some families the second and third children seem to assess the lay of the land and stake out different territory for themselves. Maybe A was needy and so B becomes more self-contained or self-reliant. One is loud, the next is relatively quiet.

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Angie's avatar

Morning all, I have been at work for only an hour and already have two crises.

I have always enjoyed the nature vs nurture conversation. Surely, it is not all of one, but, I would surmise nature has some big influence, because my siblings and I are all very different personalities, yet my parents taught us all the same things, and we didn't all respond the same.

I have been told I was a rebellious child almost from the get go ( though quite happy go lucky and friendly, I even talked to ants...lol...per my dad ( on our walks), as far as being told who I was supposed to be , what I had to eat, what I could wear etc ( this was mostly a conflict between my mother and I, as we have very different worldviews and behaviors). I think headstrong might be a better descriptor here... But, I loved being around people and interacting, and both these traits have stayed.

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

Good topic, Marque. This should get things going today!

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BikerChick's avatar

Ah, the age old question...nature vs nurture. #1 (birth order) always woke up happy, at 29 she’s still very good natured. #2 is named Abby which quickly developed the nickname Crabby. She’s the reason I became a stay at home mom. I couldn’t bear the crying when I left her at daycare. It was a torturous 2 years and it pains me as a mom to reflect back to those years (and I only worked 3.5 days a week.) She’s not crabby as an adult but one does have to take care with one’s words around her. #3, as most of you know, has Asperger’s. I’d say he is extremely good natured but is seemingly always distracted. Lots going on in that head.

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Josh Blumenthal's avatar

"Hundreds of studies have subsequently and unequivocally demonstrated that temperament is a driving factor in child development that is at least as important as everything that comes after a baby enters the world, including parenting."

Seriously? Hundreds of studies to prove common sense, every day human experience? Things like this never cease to amaze me.

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Josh Blumenthal's avatar

"Life is a come-as-you-are proposition, it seems the science these days is telling us" Thanks, it's always good to start the day with a laugh. As I read this, it suggests that science might tell us otherwise, or has done so at other times when life is definitely, always a come-as-you-are proposition. To think otherwise seems pretty arrogant to me. What's the expression? We plan, God laughs? Or, in the words of the mortal Mike Tyson, everybody has a plan until they get hit. Okay, having regained my composure, I'll keep reading now.

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Aylene Wright's avatar

Interesting, but at least what you have quoted only states that inborn temperament is "at least as strong" as parenting, not necessarily stronger. I don't think that the former statement is really that controversial.

Certainly, it's a welcome counter to the "let's blame refrigerator mothers for autism" type sentiments also common at the time. And even now we have both progressives and conservatives assuming babies and even schoolchildren are total blank slates that can be written on at will. Hence panics about "grooming" and such. The assumptions behind a lot of the culture wars involving kids includes that.

Conservatives often at least have an ideal of a very authoritarian model of the family in which children are expected to be subservient to and blindly follow the adults. I say ideal because I also get the impression most don't actually parent that way. Jonah has often stated the family isn't a democracy. But he also praised his daughter for coming with him to be with her grandmother in her last days. That implies she chose to do that, he didn't order her to do it as an authoritarian father would have.

And did they follow these babies to determine if fretful babies grow into fretful adults, or the easy babies grow into easy-going adults?

Although just anecdotal, I recall that when we were little kids (single digits) I was much more outgoing than my sister, who was seen as the "shy one". But as we grew up she became less shy and I became, although not quite shy, much more introverted.

I often think arguing Nature vs Nurture isn't that productive. But I have noticed this is a recurrent theme of yours and it's certainly interesting.

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IncognitoG's avatar

I find it fascinating, but it’s both/and rather than either/or on the Nature/Nurture front.

The quantifiable, observable science continues to furnish hard evidence that Nature dominates—more recently in (I can’t recall which or whose) research showing that we are able to overcome our inherited personalities for a few years between adolescence and our 30s with a lot of effort, but that we revert to our genes as we age.

Or the neuroscience that “proves” there’s no such thing as Free Will: we’ve already biochemically made our decisions of what to do before we act. The justifications we give are post-hoc rationalizations. We can see further evidence to support that conclusion in aphasic patients who have lost control over a leg, say, but explain to themselves and everyone else that they won’t move it because they really don’t want to and go on to expand on the detailed reasons.

OTOH, what we understand and find as evidence is limited by the things we can measure and quantify. It’s hard to imagine anything more difficult to quantify or model than parenting, parental inputs, and the shocks and joys of life experience. While Nature has the evidentiary upper hand these days, so to speak, perhaps we’ll come to appreciate that as an artifact of our measuring and quantifying limitations.

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Jay Janney's avatar

I don't think I am an authoritarian parent. I wasn't quite free range, but I'd take a book/kindle with me, reading on a bench away from the fun while they ran like madmen about, having fun. They knew where to find me, but I let them play.

Except for the Indy Children's Museum. My wife noted I played harder than did the kids. True, but only because it was awesome! But even then, on the fifth floor I sat by the Rube Goldberg billiard ball machine, adoring it for hours while the kids played farther in the room.

One embarrassing story. One day at the park it was time to leave so I hollered to my oldest, who responded "I'm in the middle of some research!". Of course, he still claims I was once two hours late to pick him up from practice because I was doing research....

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

“I’m in the middle of some research!” I like that one!!

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

Interesting observations.

My husband and I have always been fascinated by the relationship between one of our nephews and his parents. They (especially my brother) really hovered over their son. The first time we saw him was a winter day at a family gathering. They had put a blanket over him, and brought him in the house that way, grandly placed him on the floor in his car seat, and removed the blanket. I couldn’t believe the scowl, and he was maybe a month old.

From then on we watched as his parents worried and fussed over him. They were always concerned about hurting his feelings. He became really good at manipulating them, and in turn, they insisted that the rest of the family treat him with care. They claimed he was “gifted.”

He’s not doing great as adult, and I have to admit that I’m not sure what happened. Was it his personality? Was it theirs? Probably a combo.

But, also looking back at my brothers and me, we were each very different. I see many of the same traits today, and none of us are young!

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Jay Janney's avatar

Is now a good time to point out we often used a laundry basket (with towels in the bottom) as a portable crib when our kids were born? We did that at meeting near Christmas, so of course I sang "Away in a manger, no room for a bed".....

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CynthiaW's avatar

We put a kid in a drawer. Took the drawer out of the dresser first.

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Richard Maxton's avatar

I have a pic of myself and my cousin (3 weeks younger) side by side in a drawer a few weeks after our birth.

My mom still laughs at that. "It wasn't even attached to the wall with a safety strap!"

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CynthiaW's avatar

It's a wonder any of us survived.

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Jay Janney's avatar

Should we assume that child is "top-shelf"?

I know, I know, that one deserves two 🚪🚪!

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CynthiaW's avatar

No, bottom drawer.

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

I’m enjoying this for some reason. 😉

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

Both seem like good ideas—very practical!

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Jay Janney's avatar

With enough towels in the bottom, very comfortable, portable...

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CynthiaW's avatar

"He became really good at manipulating them, and in turn, they insisted that the rest of the family treat him with care."

That parent-child combination, working together to manipulate the rest of the world, can be difficult to deal with. We have a boy and his mom in the science team that are like this: the mother is always agitating to make sure her son (we'll call him J) is at the center.

Last Friday, the teams were choosing names, and this boy's team (which includes Son F) had made a list of about 15 possible names. I proposed that they pass the list around, and each team member could eliminate one they didn't like. That cut the list in half. One of the names eliminate was the one J had proposed. His mother immediately said, "It would be better if they went about this a different way, because one person could have removed a name that was really good!"

"Too late, we're moving on," I said. They ended up with a name that everyone agreed was okay, which is the best you can do.

Last year at the regional competition, this mom tried to get the team disqualified after another team member got a higher score on his topic than her son did on his. The competition organizers from State Natural Resources had agreed there was no infraction, and she was asking, "Is there a way to appeal to National?" Against their own team!

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

What fun. It’s so unhealthy for the child, and really annoying for everyone else. You handled it well.

I remember asking my SIL to bring a side dish for Thanksgiving one year, and she wanted to bring this really garlicky humus because “that’s what Max likes.” I probably should have let it pass, but I was so tired of always having to cater to him. I tried suggesting a few other dishes, but Max didn’t like any of those. I finally said, “I don’t care what Max likes.” There was a nervous chuckle on the other end of the phone call, and she ended up bringing a fruit salad. Thank goodness it was something Max liked!

What I really feel sad about is that he (because of his parents) basically ruined family holidays.

One year my brother stood up and told everyone that they would host Thanksgiving the next year, and we could all bring something to pass. Basically no on said anything, but I knew what we were all thinking. My uncle, who was sitting next to me, quietly mumbled, “That’s it, your aunt and I are going to spend it with Uncle Hank in the nursing home.”

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CynthiaW's avatar

It seems to be the mother more than the boy.

Family members are extra difficult!

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Josh Blumenthal's avatar

sometimes you wish the parents would stay home

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

Unfortunately, it’s hard when it’s a family gathering.

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CynthiaW's avatar

Totally.

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Josh Blumenthal's avatar

I coached youth soccer and served as regional commish for a few years and did it for the kids. Never cared what the parents thought. One warm, spring day it was raining, but no thunder or even threat of it so I said we play. Parents were not happy but the kids had a ball and my only regret was that I had to be on the sidelines. I wanted to be in the mud, too. (You begin to see why Kim says I have the maturity of a 15 year old.)

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Josh Blumenthal's avatar

Family as democracy? When the boys were young enough to be in the back of a station wagon ono the way to some fun place, they asked if we could change our plans in some way I no longer remember. What I do remember is that it didn't work but they wanted to vote. (3 kids, 2 adults) I agreed to the vote so long as they understood our votes counted for more than theirs. Another time, at home, and they were slightly older, they protested some rule and I offered to change the rule to their liking if, in exchange, they would pay the mortgage for just one month. They didn't even ask how much it was. I didn't have many rules. I thought teaching responsibility was more important and that meant giving freedom and they are all now responsible adults, parents even.

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Phil H's avatar

I take it they didn't pay your mortgage? 🤣

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The original Optimum.net's avatar

“. Both sexes have a stocky body…” The belts make sense, then. Very slimming.

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Phil H's avatar

Coloration only, not real belts.

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CynthiaW's avatar

Body-shaming tyranny, even in the avian world.

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The original Optimum.net's avatar

Good morning. I think I was born with the temperament of that great Bruce Springsteen song, Born to Pun.

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Jay Janney's avatar

The Boss is indeed a kindred spirit when he sang "PUN in the USA, I was PUN in the USA.

Got into a little hometown PUN, Phil H came and I'm on the run

and it goes downhill from there.

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Phil H's avatar

You are definitely asking for it, even though I didn't see that as a *real* "PUN" as opposed to repeating the word "PUN".

Well, you asked for it, you got it, Toyota. 🚪

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Phil H's avatar

There is a lot of temperament here for sure, not always for the best.

(But butchering classic Bruce Springsteen is different from a pun.)

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Phil H's avatar

I have the temperament of (the late) Tom Petty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3efKaFVBcMU

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CynthiaW's avatar

Well, see where that got him: dead.

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Phil H's avatar

We all gotta die someday.

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Jay Janney's avatar

The end of all the Shakespearean plays I've read end with "Exeunt Omnes", which means "exit all", but which I mistranslated as "Everybody has to go sometime". I thought of taping it to the bathroom door.

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

I admit that I prefer your interpretation. 😊

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CynthiaW's avatar

Then we need another sign for people who won't leave the bathroom.

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CynthiaW's avatar

Beats the alternative. Just ask Tithonus.

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Phil H's avatar

I had to look that up, not having had a "classical" education.

Yuck.

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

How on earth did this come up first when I got to comments this morning?! 🧐🤷‍♀️🤭

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

It sure seemed that way! Usually I see TSAF first.

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The original Optimum.net's avatar

Early bird. Worm.

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

Eeewww 🪱

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Angie's avatar

I love Magic and you obviously have it...lol

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The original Optimum.net's avatar

Thank you. If you love magic, I highly recommend "In and Of Itself," a televised version of the play, which I saw Off Broadway. Its pretty amazing. Not sure which streaming service its on, but you can Google it.

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Angie's avatar

It's your temperament...giggle

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

That’s true!

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Josh Blumenthal's avatar

You just have good timing.

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Josh Blumenthal's avatar

It's early, time for tea and toast. How about bread to pun?

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CynthiaW's avatar

Ooh, that was complext!

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Josh Blumenthal's avatar

Yeah, not my best. It was a stretch.

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IncognitoG's avatar

“The sun rises in the East” was also said of the baker’s baby, fyi.

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CynthiaW's avatar

Today's special animal friend is the Belted Kingfisher, Megaceryle alcyon. This bird is found year-round through most of the United States. Migratory populations breed in Canada and overwinter in Mexico or on the Gulf coast of South America. They are a species of Least Concern.

Belted kingfishers are 11 to 14 inches high with a wingspan around 22 inches. Females are slightly larger than males. Males have a dark blue head, back, and wings. Females are slate gray, but they have reddish bands on their chest and sides, while males have a gray band; this is the "belted" part of their name. Both sexes have a stocky body and a large head with a long, pointed beak for snapping fish from the water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8djL-Z-WJI

Belted kingfishers eat fish, crustaceans, insects, reptiles and amphibians, and some small mammals. They perch on trees, fences, or bushes near bodies of water and dive headfirst to catch prey. The shape of their heads is adapted to making a clean dive which deceives the prey animal until Snap! The design of kingfishers' heads inspired the designers of Japan's bullet trains, aiding them in streamlining the front of the train to avoid sonic booms in tunnels.

These birds are solitary during most of the year. Breeding pairs are monogamous for the season. The male courts the female by bringing her food, and both sexes defend their breeding territory with fierce posturing, wing-flapping, and shrieks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywwbaFy6XM

Kingfishers make nests in pond or stream banks, excavating an upward-sloping tunnel and placing the nest above possible rising water. Males do the majority of the digging work, which may take up to three weeks. The female lays 5 to 8 eggs, which both parents help to incubate for 22-44 days. The nestlings are fledged in about a month. In some habitats, a pair can hatch two nests in a season.

Habitat loss is the main cause of declining – though not drastically declining – populations of belted kingfishers. They need a particular arrangement of clear water with limited vegetation, nearby trees or shrubbery, and vertical stream or pond banks for their feeding and nesting practices. They have been observed feeding from backyard ornamental fish ponds.

Here's a longer video with lovely views, for the good of everyone's mental health:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yIMik4CTX8

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Jay Janney's avatar

I read online a commentary about how we need to make our language less violent. A Bullet train sounds like it could kill someone (which it can if zir steps onto the tracks in front of one moving at high speed).

Kingfisher doesn't sound violent whatsoever, but it does sound sexist. So is it better to call it something violent or sexist?

BTW, George Carlin did a comedy riff on this years ago "Laugh? I thought I'd die" from his "on the road" album.

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CynthiaW's avatar

I've never heard any bird species complain about sexism.

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Jay Janney's avatar

Few of them get tenured is the best explanation I have.

I have a new owl in my woods. I can hear him at night "Whoooooooot"... But I haven't seen him.

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CynthiaW's avatar

You're not supposed to see them.

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Jay Janney's avatar

sez who...or is it sez hoot?

I know, I know, 🚪!

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

You haven’t shown yourself out in quite awhile! 😂

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R.A. Watman (Anne)'s avatar

I’m sure we have plenty of them, but I haven’t seen many. A few years ago I spotted one while driving not far from home. We have a stream that runs through part of our property and a number of others, along that road, so I’m guessing that’s what attracted it. I also know I’ve seen those holes along river banks, and I had no idea they were from kingfishers!

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CynthiaW's avatar

Good morning.

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IncognitoG's avatar

Hiya!

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